June’s pride month became an occasion for a number of discussions around MVRDV’s commitments to LGBTQ+ rights, culminating in a meeting organised by Jan Knikker, a partner of MVRDV and head of strategy and development, with some of the company’s prominent LGBTQ+ staff. Participating in the discussion were associate director Aser Giménez Ortega, head of visualisation Antonio Luca Coco, associate Mick van Gemert, senior business development manager Alex Rodriguez, head of Asia communications Carmen Xu, designers Simone Costa and Alexander Forsch, copywriter Jessica Cullen, and urban designer Stijn Lanters.

What follows is an edited and shortened transcript of their meeting, published internally (on the occasion of Rotterdam Pride Week) in an attempt to be transparent about MVRDV’s discussions on this topic. Due to the sensitive nature of some of the events discussed, please do not share this text outside of the office.

Aser: Working at MVRDV, I think the company’s commitment to LGBT+ rights has always been positive, and beyond normal, I would say. I think that for me, our message is more interesting to show towards clients or towards the world right now, because we're working all around the world, so we are in a position to set an example. For me the message is really important to tell the clients, okay, you are talking to MVRDV, and these are our values. On the other hand, I never went to somewhere like Russia, for example.

Jan: I did.

Aser: And how did it feel?

Jan: It felt awkward. For me personally, I'm totally out of the closet at home but not always when out and about. Because it feels like you have to come out of the closet over and over - you know, you are young and you do it the first time, but then for the rest of your life you have to do it again every time you meet people. For example I was with a co-architect driving through the mountains, and I was asked about my wife. I said “actually I have a husband” and he almost drove into a ditch! [All laugh]

Mick: It was physically dangerous to come out!

Jan: Yeah, but also quite awkward, actually, that he was so shocked that this happened.

Aser: For me, I was in Kyiv with a co-architect, and also they asked me, do you have a wife? I said “oh, no, I have a husband” and they say “ahh, and what does she do?” So I say “well, HE...” [All laugh] Really, it’s not in their mindset, or somehow they just ignore what you say. And that’s why the message that we want to give the world is important, to me.

Jan: Yeah, on the other hand I also fear that if I'm very outspoken about it then I might make my professional radius smaller.

Mick: So are you saying that you prefer to stay closeted on some occasions?

Jan: I'd rather stay closeted in Russia. But of course if we publish all this on the website then I'm not going to be closeted in Russia anymore! [Editor's note: publishing this conversation online was originally considered as a possibility, but it was decided afterwards that the topics raised were too sensitive]

Aser: Were you closeted there because it was your choice, or it was something you already discussed with Winy, Jacob, and Nathalie, or...?

Jan: No, it's kind of self-censorship. I also don't have a marital status on Facebook despite being married. I don't show my husband ever. To me that came with this job basically, I felt like there are so many countries where they don't accept it, so maybe I'm a bit discreet about it. In one sense I don't instantly want to discuss it because I think it should be normal. But it also feels a bit awkward, so from time to time I post rainbow flags and stuff like that, just to keep my conscience clean. [all laugh]

Simone: So isn’t it a paradox in a way? We make these statements about how inclusive we are, yet even you, as a partner in this firm, are put in situations where it’s awkward. It’s a dilemma we face.

Jan: You're right, it's really difficult and I'm not happy about this, but I also know that there's a nasty world out there that is not really accepting of us. Or it could be possible that I'm out and maybe nobody cares, maybe I shouldn't be so careful. I don't know, what do you think?

Alex R: I think it's a question of, what are your personal principles and the principles of the office, which can be hard to marry, right? Because I think we all agree that being LGBTQ is a personal experience that isn't shared by the entire office. So the question is, where does that impact your work on a day-to-day basis and where is it a more personal experience? I think it's difficult when hearing Jan speak about his own experience of when to be out, when not to be out, and it’s still something I think everybody here lives with.

Jan: That was funny because in the Management Team, Frans [de Witte] said, “I don't want to have an office where anybody feels like they have to be in the closet. I want you to be out!” I said “yeah, but I want to decide myself whether I go to Russia or not, that's not your decision to make.” But I guess this is part of working globally, right? We want to work globally because - sorry for the Miss America pageant - we want to save the planet and we want to be relevant, so we don't want to withdraw into a niche that is super-comfortable. We also want to be out there and do projects in countries that are perhaps not as liberal and tolerant as the Netherlands. Because we can make a difference and it is important to stay in touch and talk.

Jessica: Jan, can I ask what are we doing then, in exchange for working in these countries? I feel, for me philosophically, that’s what I need. As a way to kind of rectify things, so if we’re working in these places, then we’re also doing some like, LGBT+ offset, so maybe some of our profits are going to LGBT+ organisations.

Jan: Jessica, this is a really good proposal. And we’re of course trying to do a similar thing right now with the foundation, where we want to fund this offset in terms of our pollution. So why not also have this human rights offset, alongside the sustainability foundation?*

Mick: But of course inclusivity is sustainability, right? There's SDGs that also relate to inclusiveness. I also think it’s more interesting sometimes to engage directly with the project and see if we can see certain parameters - you know, save the world like you said - than to just compensate our activities with funds.

Jessica: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean as I understand it, now with every project we have to have certain SDGs met. And perhaps another strategy that we can add to that is a variable that would change with respect to which country you're working in. So if you know for instance that a country like Russia, or indeed Hungary now, is scaling back LGBT+ rights then we would strategically emphasize that particular SDG in a certain way.

Simone: I certainly agree with that, but there are different kinds of inequalities too. Between lower and higher income, different minorities, whatever, but when it comes to LGBT+ issues that’s a very tricky one to deal with. I'm not sure how the SDG can affect that much…

Jan: Unisex toilets, for example, are a very simple thing. We had one trans employee, and for her it was priceless that we had these toilets in the office. She sent us a very big thank you note afterwards saying that she was so worried that she wouldn't be welcome in either toilet, that it even caused her to lose sleep, and then by coming into MVRDV, she found out that the toilets on the upper floor were unisex. That is also a part of this inclusivity SDG I would say. That's a detail but imagine, we get a big project in Russia, what could we do then in terms of support for everyone’s rights?

Mick: I once put a gay couple in a Russian render. [All laugh]

Jan: That could be seen according to Russian law as illegal propaganda.

Antonio: I’ve tried to put some in our renders! But I’ve also got some complaints about it.

Mick: From who? From the design team?

Antonio: I won’t say who, but someone higher up. It wasn’t even so noticeable on the image, but I got the comment to change that couple to something else.

Mick: You should have escalated that Antonio!

Antonio: It was at the beginning of my career, so some years ago. Today it’s no problem.

Alex F: From a business development point of view the projects we take in - because we did the Pulse Memorial and Museum competition in Orlando, we are working on the competition for the LGBTQ2+ Monument in Ottawa - it would be good if we also focus on getting these projects and let our work speak for itself. That we participate in these kinds of projects, even though they are not the most profitable ones, it shows it's something that the office cares about, and that informs how MVRDV is perceived.

Jan: Of course, but those projects are not often out there. On top of that we also have an ethical check on all the projects we do. Generally we try not to work for the government in certain countries, but it's often extremely difficult to do that, since in these countries it’s often all interlinked. Even when you work for someone else, they’re connected to the government two or three layers up. But as a general rule, having the work speak for us is certainly a good idea. And never forget, we work globally for positive change through architecture and urbanism and not in first instance because we want to earn money.

Alex R: I think it’s more than what most architecture offices do. I think the fact we are engaged in these projects, if you look across the gamut for comparable offices, they won't be pursuing these kind of projects. I think that's something that we can say for ourselves already.

Jan: And we have a big rainbow sticker on the front door, which I stuck there myself. Carmen, I think a perspective from Shanghai would be interesting here. Can I ask you what you think of these issues?

Carmen: Actually as part of the community, I feel even though we sometimes get pressure from families, as people who work in the design industry we don’t really get so much pressure from our colleagues, or people we meet or talk to. I think in this way somehow we're protected. I'm not sure if this happens in Europe or other countries, but at least in Shanghai and other first-tier cities in China, I think people feel that it's reliable for a designer to be LGBTQ because it means you can always do good work. [All laugh]

Jan: Can I ask you about this? Because I once went four hours by express train from Beijing, and then I had drinks with the local client that we wanted to woo in a place called Handan. Would you feel comfortable there as well?

Carmen: What happened to you?

Jan: Nothing, aside from way too much booze, but I just wonder how they would react.

Carmen: You know, maybe we have been getting used to this for too long, maybe we unconsciously try to adapt to those kinds of situations. Maybe we’re too obsessed with our comfort zone. When you talk to people with whom it feels comfortable, you come out of the closet, but if I'm talking to certain clients, I would never. I would just talk about the business and the work, and that can be quite normal.

Jan: Yes, but of course with clients, you go out socialising and then the clients ask you “so how's your wife?” I had that in Britain. They said “Oh, Jan, I heard your partner’s from Liverpool”. Yes. “Oh what street?” Okay, this street, “Oh, is she from this school?” I said, no, HE has not been to that school and then they were so genuinely embarrassed on their part, their apologetic reaction was polite and friendly and of course also awkward. I felt bad for embarrassing them. That project didn't actually continue [All laugh]. It was for different reasons though.

Carmen: I think this is also language-related, you know in English you have to define them as a he or she but in Chinese it's only one word.

Jan: You're very lucky people! But I would like to ask others, did anybody feel uncomfortable coming out at MVRDV?

Alex F: It just feels very normal here. Even discussing it now, we talk mostly about problems in the external world, because internally it is our comfort zone. Here we have this lucky chance that this is an environment where it doesn't really matter. You just do your job and you’re a nice person, or maybe even someone doesn’t like a person, but it has nothing to do with their sexuality. It's a luxury - when I talk to my friends in some German offices they have to deal with lots of homophobic comments, even from inside the office, from older people mostly. So we are quite lucky that here in this environment this is just not an issue.

However, as soon as you step out, I think then it becomes challenging. Also when you are in architecture school, you don't see a lot of gay role models that you can look up to. In Germany, there was this thing last year in the movie industry, published in the Süddeutsche called Act Out where I think 130 actors came out at the same time. Because they say the movie or theater industry is so diverse - but not to the outside, because they're afraid that they won't get roles. So then there was an article in a Swiss architecture magazine, about “Architecture Out” because the architecture scene is an environment that is very open on the inside, but again not from outside. The author tried to collect names from professors, from people who run companies, stakeholders, where he knew, or through his network he knew, that they were gay, but they were not willing to go for an interview or to really say it out loud. And that's exactly as you just said, in your own experience you kind of narrow your radius.

So coming here you kind of see it’s this comfort zone, and you can just grow as an architect and develop yourself, but I'm kind of curious about how it works with this internal-external relation.

Jan: It starts outside the door, right? The moment you step out, Rotterdam is not a very safe place if you want to be openly gay. But sometimes also inside the office actually: Jessica - we’ve had the heaviest discussions about the subject, is there anything you want to say? For example I once told you that Dutch humour also hits LGBT+ people in the office sometimes, and I was actually saying that I believe it can be okay…

Jessica: … And I said it's not okay. [laughs]

Mick: What sort of jokes do you mean?

Aser: Yeah, please.

Jan: Well, for example, “let's send Jan to Saudi Arabia”, or some people I have overheard saying, “ooh, I have to be careful because that person is gay, teeheehee. Don’t bend over.”

Mick: It's like soccer humour.

Jan: It's totally soccer humour. On the other hand I like to make generalizing jokes about Dutch people or about whoever I feel like, so if I told people that they can't do these jokes, then I also feel like I don't have the right anymore, but what do you think?

Jessica: I think that MVRDV is of a certain size now that it demands a certain maturity and a zero-tolerance for making anybody feel uncomfortable. I mean, if you want to have an inclusive, welcoming, warm place where people can feel comfortable to do their best and be their best then certain things have to be left for the locker room and not for the office. I feel I have as good a sense of humour as the next person and you know, I enjoy a good laugh but I don't think it should be at the expense of somebody else.

Mick: I never experienced - not that I can remember - I never experienced such things in the office. Although somebody told me once that they could see from my work that I was gay and I took that as a compliment. [All laugh]

Jan: If it helps though, Jessica, I started to think about your comments and I started to correct people that make these jokes. So I also have to be more careful when I make jokes because now I tell people off. I also started to talk to people that said - in Dutch we have kind of derogatory phrases like flikker op or sodemieter op. I also told people that this is not acceptable, because it refers to gay people.

Mick: I do feel that, when people say that to me.

Jan: It's like a little pinch every time you hear that, right?

Alex F: We’ll soon all come back to the office, and I think a lot of these things don’t happen on the Zoom calls because you wouldn't give these comments on a Zoom call, I guess, or I hope. But when we are all here again in real life and we're so many people, I think more and more of these things will happen, so you have to be aware.

Jan: We also had our inclusivity week planned before Covid hit, that would have included something more about ethics in general perhaps. A guy from the BNA would come and explain to us the virtue of “the letters”, why this acronym becomes longer and longer and why we are all part of it, because at the moment we only have two letters as far as we know.

Jessica: As far as we know! We're a big company.

Mick: Have you done some research, Jessica?

Jessica: [Laughs] No, I’m just looking at percentages, that’s all.

Jan: Well, if there are more people and they don’t dare to come out that would of course be absolutely depressing. That's why having these events and going out is also important, so that they would feel safe and happy. I'm not sure who told me but I heard also that some people only come out at the moment they get a second contract or a permanent contract.

Stijn: For me it’s just a question of if it's comfortable enough inside MVRDV for people. This reminds me of my boyfriend, he worked for the municipality. They started with a little group where they had gay drinks every month, and this gay drinks expanded and expanded and is like an inclusive drink now. Every month, and it's worked quite well. Is that something that's needed here?

Mick: I think we shouldn't underestimate that we are also a very competitive environment. Especially juniors that come in, they want to show their best side and have to perform really well in order to get these things like permanent contracts. So yeah, I know that we're all kind of super happy about our environment, but I'm sure there's points to improve. I also had interns that I found out after months and months, and it’s like, why am I only finding out now?

Jan: It’s sad because it's not necessary to be closeted here, I would say. Honestly, I have never heard anyone say “That person is gay, lets not extend the contract”, its never been a parameter.

* (in the meantime, we have discussed the proposal to pay an indulgence towards a foundation to amend for our engagement in countries which are hostile towards LBGTIQ+ people. We have decided to not do this, but instead engage in architecture projects which make people’s lives better in precarious situations, such as a clinic in Tanzania or a Fuggerei 2.0 in another African country; the Barapullah Drain can also be seen as part of this initiative. We want to make a difference through architecture and planning. For these idealistic projects, MVRDV does not receive a fee. If you have an idea for such an idealistic project, please feel free to pitch it to janknikker@mvrdv.com)