This interview was originally published in IDEAT CHINA X MVRDV, a Special Issue of the magazine from March 2022 which was guest edited by MVRDV. This interview was conducted by Irene Start.

‘’I find your work very inspiring’’ – MVRDV’s Jacob van Rijs in conversation with designer Sabine Marcelis.

In his designs, MVRDV founding partner Jacob van Rijs is renowned for his dedication to bold concepts combining daring ideas with a humane and user-friendly approach. For the Chinese edition of design magazine IDEAT, Van Rijs and young New Zealand-born designer Sabine Marcelis speak about their drive, the power of collaboration between architect and designer, and the projects they have worked on together. “[In] architecture... you have a holistic approach where you build in moments of rest to have part of the building jump out. Like composing”, say Marcelis.

Bulgari, Shanghai

Jacob: Since this conversation is for IDEAT China, let’s begin by shortly discussing our relationship with China. I will start; we have an office in Shanghai. For me, as a European citizen, Shanghai is a city where you see the incredible speed of development combined with a specific history that is reflected in the architecture of concession times. This contrast is very exciting, and as architects, we are always intrigued to work there - although working there is not as easy as in Europe due to the language barriers. This is changing, however, as more people are involved in the organisation and communication processes.

Sabine: A few years ago, I designed an installation, "The Shapes of Water", for fashion brand FENDI, which travelled to Shanghai. We are currently working on a six-metre-tall, all-glass fountain for Shanghai, which will be taken to China after its production in the Netherlands. What always fascinates me are the production possibilities in China. I am a production nerd and find it super interesting to see how it works there, in comparison to here.

Jacob: Is your fountain autonomous in its approach or did you create it specifically for this location?

Sabine: It is definitely site-specific. The brief was to create an eye-catcher, an icon, for this new shopping district. It was obviously an opportunity for me to think of scaling things up again. When you present an installation in a big public space, you cannot work small - it has to be a statement, a three-dimensional object that can be experienced in different ways. I assembled quite some knowledge on the production of glass, but making it into an installation is taking things a step further.

Jacob: Is it going to have special lighting effects? Because that is somehow a speciality in Chinese cities. Everything always has to glow at night.

Sabine: For me that is also a theme in my work, but it is more so an interaction with light, so the channel that the water flows through is indeed lit up in the evening. It really celebrates the water.

Jacob: So it was created for a shopping mall, but is actually in the outdoor space. A public art piece you could almost say.

Sabine: Yes, it is the entrance promenade to the shopping centre.

Jacob: Shanghai has many shopping malls that compete with each other in terms of their ‘coolness’. A shopping centre is sometimes almost more interesting to visit than a museum. As architects, we are often asked to implement the wow-factor in China. Was your assignment like that as well?

Sabine: I guess it is a way of elevating the shopping experience. In this case, the client wanted to integrate art into a commercial setting, which is also an essential part of their marketing strategy; a shopping centre that also becomes a place that celebrates art. In this case, there was a special programme to support young Chinese artists.

Jacob: We just finished an interesting project for the Bulgari flagship store in Shanghai Plaza 66 – one of the largest and most popular shopping malls in Shanghai. The store features a green, jade-like façade designed by MVRDV, made from brass and recycled glass. Inspired by a medley of influences, from the original Bulgari store in Rome to Shanghai’s unique Art Deco architecture, the project is innovative and sustainable, yet remains true to the heritage of both Bulgari and Shanghai. I am proud of the use of recycled glass in this project. In general, the construction industry has to gear more towards production that has a higher focus on sustainable materials. The beer bottles become jade, glass-like pieces, melted together to create a sort of fascinating glow. This has a similar feeling to the jade stone; cool but also shy. The client wanted the jade to be brightly lit, and although at first, I was hesitant about this effect, it turned out to be very nice.

Sabine: I think that we both always try to get the most out of certain materials. I experiment a lot with my studio, often without a specific design in mind or anything yet. Once a certain material effect has presented itself, you can start thinking about what it can become in its most pure, exciting shape and manner. I am very fortunate because I get to collaborate with many architects - usually as a cherry-on-top scenario. It is an honour to be a part of something that is so much bigger and has had years of work put into it already.

Jacob: The timeframe makes architecture very different.

RED7, Moscow

Sabine: The majority of the projects we do last two to three months. A long project is half a year or a year. RED7 is now already three years in. It is by far the longest project I have ever worked on [editor’s note: this conversation was conducted prior to our withdrawal from all projects in Russia].

Jacob: I am very happy our RED7 client brought us together. You had so many ideas, including the incorporated parking, which was something we almost overlooked. Parking garages aren’t usually the most exciting of spaces, but they are an important aspect of the entry process and therefore the entire experience.

Sabine: For an architect, a parking garage is underground, and so I understand you are focusing on what is above ground. For RED7 I wanted to treat the parking space as an art gallery, where we give all the functions an artistic twist. So, indeed, instead of arrow signage, there can be paint strokes that guide the way. Instead of mirrors to help you see blind spots, we blew those up even bigger so that everything feels a bit more like art instead of a normal parking garage.

Jacob: What is great about this project is that our client really wants to go for quality first. It has a few intricate details, but at the same time, offers space for experimentation. Although it is quite a high-end apartment building, it is also a building to be seen and enjoyed by everyone.

Sabine: It is also very daring, very different from anything else around there.

Jacob: True, we are very happy with how it is coming together. Of course, it was also new for us to build something in the centre of Moscow. I think that this also goes back to the way architecture and design came together in the past, in a way that certain buildings, sculptures, or paintings were much more integrated into the design rather than just the construction of the building.

Sabine: Did you know that the reason the client contacted me is because MVRDV used my work as references for the project?

Jacob: I never realised that! I was quite excited by your interventions in the atrium and the entrance lobbies, and of course the space on top. We also notice it in the Depot Boijmans Van Beuningen, which is more or less a canvas for other designers.

Sabine: I always try to be respectful of the ideas and the intent of the building. They have to be complementary. Especially the roof terrace of RED7. The whole building is designed as a big pixel mountain, with the idea that a few of those pixels “fell off” and became structures on the rooftop. I think in any other case I would not have thought of that, as it wouldn’t have made sense in a different space. The two complement and amplify one another.

Jacob: Of course, it is difficult to do this on a large scale but I think there you have some of these interior touches, clearly your signature. We actually have a design of yours in our office in Rotterdam, the candy cube. One of our Studio Directors uses it as a bureau.

Sabine: That must be like this grand piano kind of feeling.

Jacob: I find your work very inspiring. I really enjoyed our visit to your studio, I found the workshop at the entrance amazing, and definitely, something we lack as architects. We lost that workshop feeling in our office - partly because of its size.

Sabine: Like a candy store.

Jacob: Exactly! You think “wow, it’s happening here!'' So, tell me more about your office, your new studio.

Sabine Marcelis with her "Donuts" carpet, designed as part of the FREEDOM collection for Carpet Sign. Image © Thijs Wolzak

Sabine: I am not the type of designer that sits down and sketches my next design; it very much comes from the material and or production process that is required. I really have this unique situation where the production of my work is downstairs from my studio, so I have a very close connection to everything being made. As a student, I never imagined that someday I would have the luxury of being that close to the production.

Jacob: I envy you a little bit! As an architect, work is usually more from a distance; somebody else is executing your design, so you are never completely in control. You could go to a factory to select and customise certain building materials, which we did with the RED7 bricks that are actually made in Germany, while the building is constructed in Russia. But is not the same control that you have.

Jacob van Rijs with the "Puzzle Carpet", designed by MVRDV as part of the FREEDOM collection for Carpet Sign. Image © Thijs Wolzak

Sabine: I can imagine that if I were an architect working on a really big project, I would absolutely invite other artists or designers to be part of it. You can give other people a platform, which I think is super nice about your scale of working.

Jacob: That is absolutely true, although it doesn’t happen with every project. When it does happen, it gives an extra bonus effect. I have a nice example: Dutch designer Richard Hutten invited several artists, designers and architects to design a carpet. We all had a different approach, which was very inspiring.

Sabine: As an architect, you have a huge responsibility. You really need to be aware of how people experience the spaces you design, and my sole purpose before I did anything spatial at all was to create objects that evoke some sort of curiosity or moment of wonder. Architecture is not as zoomed in I think. You have a holistic approach where you build in moments of rest to have part of the building jump out. Like composing.

Jacob: True, although I dream of the day our clients would trust us a bit more with this composing. Looking to the future: how do you think our trade will develop? In architecture, sustainability is getting more and more important; adaptive reuse and transformations of existing buildings instead of the easy way out, demolishing. Where do you think we are heading, in terms of design?

Sabine: I think timelessness is very important for the future. Everything is so fast-paced, and everyone comes out with new designs every week. This type of design is already something of the past, as timelessness and quality are really coming back to being the most important thing. I’m not really a traditional designer in the sense that I don’t launch a new design each year at the Salone del Mobile in Milan like others do. I always feel like my pieces should have a sense of timelessness as well.

Jacob: I think the Candy Cube is a nice example. You designed it for the Groos store, which is now part of our office. The quality of the element is more important than the fact that it is the most functional solution. Of course, this is what we strive for as architects - that a building can be multifunctional, and used in a different way when needed.